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Post by ammocarbsteve on Feb 25, 2011 5:15:05 GMT -5
I'd like to discuss this over a pint...
Increasingly I'm hearing the odd hint from various sources that for one reason or another certain people amongst the professional palaeontologists would like to see collecting by amateurs banned. Considering the actual manhours spent by amateurs looking for fossils all over the country and saving them from erosion or being destroyed by machinery, The MILLIONS of pounds spent by amateurs in having the specimens they find preserved and very often end up donating them or leaving them to museums...a system in place that could NEVER be equalled by any amount of public funding or manhours put into palaeontology... The wonderful fossil finds people are making on a regular basis... The Scelidosaurus, The Pliosaur's etc.... That without the comitment of amateurs would of been lost to the sea... The millions of fossils saved from quarries over the years by the comittment of amateurs regularily seaching the new workings... I suppose theres many excuses palaeontologists can use to back these pathetic viewpoints up, amateurs dont correctly record the position or context of the fossil in the strata etc... which significantly affects its scienftific value... but one could argue it wouldnt have ANY scientific value if a fossil is lay being eroded after dropping in a cliff fall, waiting for someone who is sat at a desk 200 miles away to come and find it whilst its being destroyed...
Look forward to reading any additions to the chat and mines a pint of Lager... thanks...
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Post by hallucygenia on Feb 25, 2011 8:03:41 GMT -5
Mine's a large whisky!
I don't think we'll need to have much discussion of this - it's clearly not a good idea, for the reasons you state. From a purely selfish point of view, Joe and I have benefitted greatly from the efforts of amateurs, and this is the case for many other professionals. Also, a ban will affect the law-abiding, careful collectors, and not the people who go out randomly whacking things with hammers! There may be a case for restricting collecting, or at least hammering of outcrop, in very popular spots such as the Jurassic coast, but this is different from a blanket ban.
I think we'd all support making sure that amateur collectors know about the importance of recording details, and the way to do that is firstly to make sure that the information on what to do is widely available - the Scottish Fossil Code is an excellent example. Also, professionals should be working with amateurs, to the benefit of everyone. This is the sort of thing we're trying to do with this forum.
I will add that I haven't heard anyone, professional palaeontologist or not, expressing this opinion.
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Post by Joe Botting on Feb 25, 2011 8:22:12 GMT -5
Better be a small whisky ... you've not seen her after a large one.
Anyway, yes, I'm baffled. I've gone to a fair few conferences and talked to a lot of palaeontologists, and I've never heard this suggested. I've heard some pretty strident opinions on commercial collecting, and some fairly draconian views on preserving certain sites, but banning amateur collecting is just daft. I ought to add that Lucy and I have been technically amateurs for a few years now - it's only since moving to China that we've been paid to do any collecting for research, and had access once more to things like libraries and electron microscopes. But much of what we do is the good, old-fashioned going-out-and-finding-new-stuff.
This type of thing (and it's where we've had most success, I suppose) is best done by enthusiastic, at least mildly knowledgeable amateurs who have the time and dedication to go out looking, and have a good enough eye to spot things. I think that applies to everyone on here, and personally I'm all for academics working much more closely with amateurs. It's getting really critical nowadays, because the funding bodies won't support speculative fieldwork any more... which means the academics have trouble getting money just for going out and seeing what they can find. Nowadays to get a grant you need to be able to say more-or-less what your results will be in advance! So, rather than "Should amateur collecting be banned?", how about, "Should there be a lot more formal support for amateur collecting?" Any views..?
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Post by ammocarbsteve on Feb 25, 2011 13:51:40 GMT -5
Lucy….. There is a couple of names crop up regarding these views and opinions but I wont repeat them on here. Its only heresy until you actually hear it for yourself…Restricting collecting or banning hammering at small outcrops, even with restrictions in place it still goes on with some people supplying the commercial demand for some of our fossil specimens and I suppose its very difficult to police…
Funny you should mention the Scottish Fossil Code though… They recently closed Ladyburn to collecting… and SNH issued a written statement on UKF Fossil Forum although reading through the subsequent threads there seems to be many opinions and variations to the story;
To summarise the scenario so far if all the supporting facts are correct, There was a collector (Palaeontologist) who applied for permission to SNH to do a legitimate scientific study of the fauna and do research on the beds at Ladyburn and prior to doing this he got written permission from SNH to undertake this. He still has his copy of this written permission which will no doubt include dates and signatures as well as being in possession of ALL the fossils he collected from there and SNH have since after it was reported by someone as an act of vandalism (as someone used a digger at Ladyburn) lost all their paperwork regarding this (how convenient) and are now inferring they didn’t give anyone permission to do the dig and ‘’consider it the most serious breach of best practice’’ and everyone is banned from collecting fossils from there.
If all this is true then the main problem with SNH burying their head in the sand and trying to blame everyone else for basically a fault or flaw in their own systems of applying for permission to do research of this type is this:-
A review of the mistakes that led to this happening in the first place wont be undertaken and the procedures for applying to SNH for permission to do research of this kind wont be changed accordingly in light of this recent problem. Maybe if the dig actually involved a representative from SNH to be there then this might not ever of happened in the first place.
The fossil material collected by this individual who had permission to collect from SNH will filter away into private collections probably abroad and the scientific study of it will never take place. The individual concerned will be worried about writing the material up as it identifies him/her as the guilty party involved in a ‘’serious breach of best practice‘’ collecting fossils. What a waste of a valuable opportunity and a chance to make something good from all this.
The blame for the ‘’vandalism’’ is directed towards amateur collectors or even the commercial fossil sector which by the sounds of this recent evidence isn’t true. If the rumour becomes fact over time, as they eventually do, then this serious breach of best practice will be quoted in the future by those in power to justify other sites being closed and inaccessible to amateur collectors.
Joe…..You’re a man after my own heart, more formal support for amateur collecting. I don’t know how this could be implemented maybe a good starting point could be at museum level with collaboration and involvement with any possible joint projects that can be facilitated. Like temporary displays of fossils from private collections in public museums that would give palaeontologists and the public access to material they wouldn’t normally see…as well allow Palaeontologists to see first hand what material people have in their private collections and then select some specimens to go on display… This opens the doors and begins to build the links… These displays could also be advertised to draw in the public to the museums…refresh the exhibitions on a frequent basis and hopefully include material fossils/minerals of ‘local interest’… which is important I think…
Involvement and support leads to many things… myself and a friend have given plant and arthropod material to Lapworth that was used by students in their studies including sectioning for 3D plant reconstruction (although I never saw any results ) as well as recently allowed fossils we have found to be CT scanned for someone writing a paper about an unidentified carb critter so we have tried to be helpful, but what do you get back from an amateur collectors perspective, the truth is you very often struggle even getting a reply for an ID these days and with myself being in touch with many keen fossil collectors I can assure you I‘m not on my own regarding this…
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Post by pleecan (Peter Lee) on Feb 26, 2011 23:25:21 GMT -5
Make mine a ginger ale...soda water
A different perspective... Here in Ontario Canada... we have some of the riches deposits of Ordovician to Devonian rock. Current laws are such that if it is a park no fossil collecting or be fined or jail. So the main access point to collecting is in rock quarries but because of liability concerns most quarries have closed their doors to fossil collectors... so between Parks and Quarries, fossil collectors here are shut out... kind of a sad situation dues to policies and economics of liability concerns. PL
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Post by ammocarbsteve on Feb 27, 2011 14:21:52 GMT -5
Peter... The parks, are they collected by people with permission undertaking scientific studies or are the fossils just left to rot away?.... The same thing is happening to quarries over here, modern health & safety concerns and liabilty along with people selling material from working exposures has made getting access very difficult....Hopefully the coasts will always be accessible...
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Post by Joe Botting on Mar 1, 2011 8:24:10 GMT -5
Hi Steve, Interesting thoughts, and sad to hear it's so difficult to get responses nowadays. In local and regional museums the problem is often lack of expertise - degrees in museum studies are normally essential, but not research-level experience of the subject. There are very few specialist palaeontologists curating outside the really big museums in the UK now. This may be shifting back slightly, but of course museums are now really suffering in the economic mess. This just puts the pressure even more onto the nationals and major university museums, who may or may not have the manpower to answer all the queries they get. I like the idea of temporary displays of collections (something like this happened in Doncaster last year, where an amateur volunteer put their collection together with the specimens they had been helping to identify and curate). As always, it relies as much on available time and resources as it does willingness - many museums without a palaeontologist would be delighted to put on a display of a local collection, but it simply may not be possible. It's always worth asking, though!
I like the ideas of how to build a few more bridges, and with the internet this is getting easier. We're hoping that this forum can act as a bit of a clearing-house (in a minor way) for putting amateurs in touch with specialists, which is a necessary first step. There are of course specialists that don't want to work with amateurs, but there are also quite a few who do. There are probably a lot more, though, who would be happy to enter discussions on interesting specimens if someone made the effort for them. This group, in particular, though would be quickly put off by being presented with lots of finds that were not of any interest. I've come across a few amateurs with the attitude that their finds had a right to be of interest to specialists, and can't accept that sometimes they're just not. Where you do have amateurs willing to gear their enquiries to the interests of the specialists, and specialists willing to help amateurs for the chance of something good, then it can work beautifully.
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Post by ammocarbsteve on Mar 2, 2011 4:48:11 GMT -5
Joe... Yes your right, the internet makes things easier ..... what used to take weeks can all be done in a short period...I think you have a point there regarding 'The Forum'... If its possible to include or attract the specialists they can easily peruse the entries and locate anything of interest quite quickly... then comment... and if the people who use the forum understand that 'specialists' frequent the place... its easy to see by the comments if they have found anything important... The only problem is first of all attracting the specialists and secondly I feel 'non specialists' having access to 'good enough' reference material to cover all the more common material to avoid having to ask in the first place... Which is a BIG problem in LOTS of area's I think...
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Post by pleecan (Peter Lee) on Mar 3, 2011 16:12:05 GMT -5
Hi Steve: I am right beside the riches ordovician/silurian deposit Niagara Falls and because the area is under parks control it mean no removal of any thing is permitted meaning fines and jail time if one is caught collecting in a parks or conservation area here in Ontario Canada... the fossil simply weather and turn back to dust. Peter
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Post by ammocarbsteve on Mar 7, 2011 5:29:51 GMT -5
''the fossil simply weather and turn back to dust. Peter''
Peter....Quite a stupid rule then hey, not 'too well' thought out.... You would of thought some sort of permit scheme or something could be implemented to save some of the material...
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Post by pleecan (Peter Lee) on Mar 10, 2011 9:16:19 GMT -5
Well Steve: I drive 3hr one way some +250 km to hunt at my favorite Devonian spot at Arkona... no permission is needed... kind of sad when fossil collectors are locked out due to liability and policy issues. PL
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Post by ammocarbsteve on Mar 11, 2011 5:21:20 GMT -5
Peter.... Liabily and policy issues are used by companies to cover a multitude of reasons I think....We have had trouble gaining access to workings and recently even losing a few quarries that previously openly allowed fossil collecting due to the exploits of 'money motivated fossil collectors... for years people have took their spare fossils to trade for other fossils they want or even cover petrol money when they go say to Lyme Regis but increasingly with places like ebay and the internet... fossils from working exposures have been openly sold and noticed by the people who work there... and quite frankly it gets their goat up as you can imagine... having spent 10 hours in a truck for £100 pay then they watch 3 fossil make that in 5 minutes on ebay from their place of work...the stupidity of these people is staggering!... no thought for anyone else and how their actions can affect how people perceive fossil collectors....
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tqb
Enthusiastic fossilologist
Posts: 111
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Post by tqb on Mar 11, 2011 7:29:49 GMT -5
Steve, I like the look of a few continental quarries (privately owned I guess) and the odd farm owner here who charge a reasonable amount for a day on the site - could be a way forward.
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Post by ammocarbsteve on Mar 12, 2011 5:21:26 GMT -5
Tarquin yes..... but theres always the '' if you find anything rare we want it'' scenario... which kinda takes the edge of going collecting in the first place really... I think....
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Post by Joe Botting on Apr 2, 2011 8:27:02 GMT -5
Just following up on all this, I started a discussion on the UK fossil forums: www.discussfossils.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2358&title=amateuracademic-collaborationwhich has generated quite a few responses, if anyone is interested. It does seem as though making comprehensive references available is one of the big issues to a lot of people, but there just isn't enough money or academic freedom in palaeontology to get very far without a specific injection of cash and empolyment. One idea we're toying with is an online journal for UK palaeontological (and geological) data - the fundamental things like site descriptions, faunal lists, and so on, with the intention of being as open as possible to amateurs contributing as well as professionals. This could be copiously illustrated, and open-access, and would build up into something that could be used as an ID resource. Would you use this? Would you publish in it? Are we barking up the wrong tree entirely? Should we go and take up plumbing instead? And why is my glass empty? Cider, please!
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