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Post by Joe Botting on Jan 5, 2008 17:47:42 GMT -5
Hi All, and a Happy New Year all round! We've got outcrops. Nearby. Hurrah! After London, this is a real novelty. And best of all, they've got fossils in, even if they're mostly bivalves. Which I'm sure are delightful, but there are far too many species, and the monographs are horrible daunting... Anyway, this did turn this up in our local Coal Measures mudstone: flickr.com/photos/77849983@N00/2155159054/[Hmm. you'll have to copy and paste - the "@" is messing it up a bit!] It's some sort of fish scale, but I'm having difficulty pinning it down even to major group. The upper margin is rather serrated where the ridges reach the edge. Any thoughts? Cheers, Joe |
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Post by neuropteris on Jan 12, 2008 5:02:08 GMT -5
Hi Joe Welcome to the Carboniferous! and welcome to the joy of trying to id those ever so slightly varying non marine bivalves - I'm afraid I gave up years ago and unless they obviously aren't they just get labelled Carbonicola sp now. As regards your fish scale, small slightly irridescent scales of that type are not uncommon in the fossil bearing non marine shales and mudstones but I can't help with a species. If ever you fancy a foray over to this side of the hills I'd be happy to show you some of our meagre localities I've set up a gallery to showcase the better finds from my now defunct opencast which includes fishscales - andrew99.fotopic.net/list_collections.phpThere's more on www.xs4all.nl/~steurh/engcrock/ecrock.htmlAll the best Andy |
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Post by Joe Botting on Jan 12, 2008 5:49:24 GMT -5
Hi Andy and happy New Year! May an even better open-cast pit open up within walking distance of your house... but not too close. Were you really writing this at 5.02 a.m.? I'm impressed... Anyway, those are a wonderful couple of sites (especially the animals one!  ) - many thanks for putting the links up. I'd found the fauna page before, and wondered if it was yours. Spectacular plants as well (you should put some of your own ones from the shales up as well - they're just as amazing). I'm itching to get out there and start finding them, so we may well take you up on your offer! We've actually got loads of nodules in the Leeds Museum (local ones too, mostly, although almost invariably with no provenance). It's usually plants, including some very nice ones, but there are a scattering of xiphosurans (all labelled Euproops rotundatus, but I've not checked yet), at least one Palaeoxyris, and a partial fish from Halifax (looks like a coelacanthid to me). There are also reports of nodules all around Leeds, so we'll be going to sniff around in the streams and fields pretty soon. Will let you know how we get on... More photos please!  Joe |
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Post by neuropteris on Jan 13, 2008 4:02:37 GMT -5
Hi Joe
No, it wasn't 0502 - but apparently you replied at 0549 so you must be just as keen as me!
There's a load of my plants on the first link - basically examples of every type found there. When I first got in to Carboniferous lagestatte there were only 2 or 3 famous sites in the literature - Sparth Bottoms in Rochdale, Coseley in Brum, Mazon Creek and a few brief mentions of other spots but when you look into it, nodule sites seem to be scattered thoughout the UK coal fields so there must be more of them out there. Its just a matter of people having the time and access to look.
Amongst my other hats I'm also secretary of Oldham Geological Society and we're always looking for locations to visit during the year. Is it Leeds you are the Natural History Curator for?
Andy
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Post by Joe Botting on Jan 17, 2008 2:24:19 GMT -5
Sorry, Andy, of course the plants are there... I'm going just slightly mad, as they say. However, I was thinking of the wonderful examples from the shales that you've put up here previously... or were they from a different pit?
I'm getting the impression that these nodules are all over the place, as you say. I'm sure that most of the (ex-)pits in the Leeds area are noduliferous, and there are certainly xiphosurans, a fish and a ceratiocarid in the collections here (most of them described as local). I've checked one report of a good site, which came to nothing, but there are others being mentioned as well, now. Will go sniffing around at the wekend...
Lucy and I would love to come see some of your "meagre" localities, btw - thanks for the offer! It would be good to get into nodule hunting with the help of an expert. Will be in touch, perhaps when it's slightly less soggy! Are these little bits of good exposure that are still accessible, or other pits but with less of a biota?
I am indeed at Leeds - the Leeds Museum Discovery Centre, which until August is going to be keeping a reasonably low profile because we've got too much to do, but it's being used by quite a few booked groups at the moment. I had a local geology group in yesterday, foe example, and a good time was had by all.
Cheers,
Joe
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Post by neuropteris on Jan 18, 2008 9:16:43 GMT -5
Hi Joe The shale slabs are on there aswell. I'll admit there's a lot to hunt through to find them though. Sadly there are now no exposures of the good stuff that I'm aware of or working pits I've got access to but there are other sites which are accessible - marine band exposures, mudstones with ripple beds and trace fossils and, dare I say it, non marine bivalves! As regards nodule sites, the literature for the Manchester area mentions at least 5 locations but all the pit sites are now defunct  There must be more of them out there though. Anyway, look forward to hearing from you. Perhaps we could organise a visit for OGS to Leeds later in the year? We're quite a small group but try to get out somewhere at least once a month. All the best Andy |
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Post by Joe Botting on Jan 23, 2008 16:08:16 GMT -5
I think I've seen them all now, Andy. I got myself stuck in a sub-index at some point, which was why I missed them before... Truly wonderful stuff.
Well, we've gone scouting at one brick pit, and although we couldn't get in (no-one there at the weekend), there was some loose spoil tipping over along a footpath. In the couple of minutes we had there, we found a couple of bits of relatively large, flat nodule. Nothing spectacular inside, but some nice Neuropteris leaves, and (perhaps a little surprisingly) some Aphlebia. Lots of calamites bits and a nice Sigillaria in sandstone blocks as well. Not spectacular, but promising...
Would definitely be good to have you all over in Leeds sometime. I'm tempted to suggest leaving it a while, so I can sort out the collection a little bit first. Would you fancy a field meeting as well, or just the museum? If you've got presentations on the days, we have everything you'd need.
ATB,
Joe
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Post by neuropteris on Jan 27, 2008 2:04:27 GMT -5
Hi Joe
Your brick pit certainly sounds promising. If you're finding plants that quickly there is plenty of potential for the rarer stuff aswell. Aphlebia is quite an unusual find and is one of the less common plants in my experience. Keep us all up to date on what else turns up.
As regards a possible OGS visit then later in the year would be fine. We've already booked up the programme for the Summer anyway so it would probably be better in the Autumn. A field trip would be great aswell.
All the best
Andy
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Post by Joe Botting on Jan 29, 2008 16:40:04 GMT -5
Hi Andy,
We've been back, and it's definitely interesting, but not extraordinary. There are lots of nodules in the bit of accessible spoil, but they very rarely centre on a fossil. The only ones that did were a few Neuropteris fronds (heavily fractured and kaolinitised) and a couple of nodules with bivalves in.
Associated sandstone blocks: got quite a few bits of Calamites (cf. suckowi) from the sandstone blocks, and one very nice Artisia, but not one bit of lycopod. (The Sigillaria mentioned before was in a roadside sandstone boulder by the quarry access road.) Some of the sandstone has boxstone noudules, with plant bits in the edges.
In the mudstone nodules, it's almost entirely Neuropteris (or Neuropteris-like) leaves, rarely on stems, which in at least one case branches. We have two small Asterophyllites shoots, probably A. lycopodiformis, the odd bit of probably Cordaites leaf, and one nodule with fragments of a lycopod. Bivalves are reasonably common, and we've got two bits that look interestingly like arthropod cuticle. I'll post photos soon to see what you think.
Nothing to rival yours yet, but it's good to be getting a few really nice little pieces. We'll try a few other sites in the area as well, because this is clearly not the place where my museum specimens have been coming from.
Any thoughts or observations?
Cheers,
Joe
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Post by neuropteris on Jan 30, 2008 8:04:57 GMT -5
Hi Joe Still sounds like your spot could have potential though the mix of plants seems a little different - cordaites and artisia were virtually non existant at Crockhey - the pics on my gallery were just about everything found of those. Given your lack of lycopsid perhaps the local environment was different which could also affect animal content - bivalves were also uncommon at Crockhey. Don't get disheartened if you're not finding arthropods straight away though - they may be there, they may not but it is unlikely they will be common. I had the run of the whole quarry but would come back empty handed on many occasions - usually I'd get some plant but sometimes nothing decent at all - it all depends on what beds were being worked at the time so if you've only got a limited amount of spoil to get at your chances are obviously reduced. The fact that you're finding lots of nodules and at least some of them have fossil content is a good sign though. Many Crockhey nodules were duds. In my experience the arthropod cuticle is fairly distinctive - dark brown in colour, slightly irridescent in angled light and often covered in tiny cracks. Easy to spot when you get your eye in for it. I remember I did get caught out by one nodule which I decided after a bit of on site pondering was an odd shaped bit of woody material (of which there many thousands) and left only to later find it was an Arthropleurid rosette plate. Never found another I'd concentrate on the mudstone nods - finer grain and usually better preservation. Are you getting anything from the mudstones themselves? By the way, if you think you spot any errors on my id's please let me know! All the best Andy |
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Post by Joe Botting on Jan 30, 2008 16:42:15 GMT -5
Hi Andy, I've put up some photos of the best ones here: flickr.com/photos/77849983@N00/sets/72157603821731848/Any thoughts on this one are particularly welcome, because I don't know what it is:  I thought the flora was distinctly different to yours, but that's hardly surprising... there's meant to be quite a clear change in vegetation across a delta transect, I believe, so it would be strange if we had things exactly the same. Still, the rarity of lycopods is a little strange, as is the rarity of cordaitales with you. Interestingly, our lycopod twig in the nodule is surrounded by Cordaites leaves (and the mysterious bobbly thing in the gallery). As for arthropods, what do you think of our candidate? It doesn't look like plant, to me, but I'm only beginning to get my eye in and and am happy to be proved utterly wrong. We have indeed got a pretty high strike rate of fossils - probably most of them have something in, but usually it's only a fragment or two. In other cases, it's absolutely packed with bits. What we're lacking here are nodules that are nucleating on a fossil, and forming very early. We've got a fair few Neuropteris leaves with good relief, so at least some of them grew quite early. As for the shales, we really don't know - this rubble has been weathering so long that the only lumps of shale fall apart in your hand. There are certainly things in it, though: I've seen a very black shale packed with Cordaites leaves, and a grey siltstone with a faint ghost of a Mariopteris (?) frond. We'll certainly be going back some time, especially if I can arrange to get access to the quarry itself. :-) ATB, Joe |
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Post by neuropteris on Jan 31, 2008 14:49:16 GMT -5
Hi Joe
OK, No. 1 - bobbly thing. Not a clue I'm afraid - decaying plant material maybe? - odd little unidentifiable things frequently turn up.
No. 2 - unidentified twig. Again, don't know. You're right in that it doesn't look a lot like neuropteris but it doesn't look much like anything else distinctive either. Could they be immature neuropteris pinnules? Might just have been too far gone to be certain before it fossilised
No. 3 Asterophyllites lycopodiformis - I'll go along with that - its certainly horsetail
No. 4 Arthropod? - I'm going to sit on the fence with that one. It doesn't look like a body segment. When I've found them they are quite robustly preserved and don't have tears in them like your specimen seems to have. If I was pushed I'd probably go for plant but wouldn't like to say for certain.
No. 5 Neuropteris - yes, neuropteris pinnules
No. 6 and 7 - Yep, bivalves.
No. 8 Aphlebia - I'd go with it being a Palmatopteris pinnule.
Floras can vary a lot even across a short distance let alone Wigan to Leeds. The flora we collected at Crockhey (Wigan 9ft, 2ft and 4ft seams - don't know what the Leeds area equivalents are) was much more diverse than that collected at Westhaughton opencast from the same horizons a few years earlier though the distance is only 11km or so. (Soft-bodied fossils from the roof shales of the Wigan Four Foot coal seam Westhaughton, Lancashire UK LL Anderson, JA Dunlop, RMC Eager, CA Horrocks, HM Wilson Geol Mag 135 (3) 1999 321-329)
Check that your Cordaites leaf fragments are not in fact Calamites. Cordaites have very fine parallel veins, Calamites is more robust and also a lot commoner
All tbe best
Andy
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Post by Joe Botting on Jan 31, 2008 15:56:05 GMT -5
Hi Andy, Thanks for your thoughts! Shame there's nothing to be done with bobbly... it was just so different in texture to anything I've seen before that I couldn't help hoping it would be distinctive. The leafy twig is just odd; as you say, they may be too underdeveloped for the leaves to be recognisable, although they're certainly not badly preserved. The sparse venation and pointed tip do look different, though. Will have to keep an eye open for more. Interesting about my dubious arthropod. It's quite substantial, and obviously a thin film, so if it's plant I'm wondering why no veins? The splitting I think is actually just wrinkling, with creases still obscured by rock, or broken off. I'm just going to have to get something segmented for you, aren't I? Definitely Cordaites, by the way. I can do that one.  Thanks again for your help with these, and hopefully I'll have some more for you at some point! All the best, Joe |
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Post by neuropteris on Feb 5, 2008 14:33:30 GMT -5
Hi Joe Just for comparison I've put a pic of some disarticulated arthropod segments on Fossils from the pit - andrew99.fotopic.net/p48243420.html not that that proves anything one way or another since the preservation of different arthropod groups (millipedes, scorps and 'shrimps' for example) can be quite distinctive from each other. One of the functions of the Fotopic galleries is that you can look at which pics are most popular and its quite fun to see whats peeking peoples interest. There was an inexplicable craze for Stigmaria last week with 4 different Stig pics entering the top 20 out of about 200 pics. Andy |
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) - many thanks for putting the links up. I'd found the fauna page before, and wondered if it was yours. Spectacular plants as well (you should put some of your own ones from the shales up as well - they're just as amazing). I'm itching to get out there and start finding them, so we may well take you up on your offer! 
There must be more of them out there though. Anyway, look forward to hearing from you.